Opinion: Why aren’t we celebrating the naturally immune?

Clark County Today Administrator Heidi Wetzler provides compelling information about how natural immunity is not receiving the value it deserves.

Clark County Today Administrator Heidi Wetzler provides compelling information about how natural immunity is not receiving the value it deserves

At the beginning of this pandemic, I heard the term herd immunity a lot. Scientists and news anchors used to theorize about what percentage of society would have to come in contact with the virus in order to obtain herd immunity. 

Heidi Wetzler, administrator, ClarkCountyToday.com
Heidi Wetzler, administrator, ClarkCountyToday.com

We know that 40 million people have tested positive for COVID in the United States. With the original strain of the virus, it seemed to be widely agreed upon that for every person who knowingly had COVID, two more were likely exposed and not tested. According to that theory, at least 120 million Americans would be considered to have natural immunity today. This metric was born before the allegedly more infectious Delta variant came on the scene. So theoretically, the total number of those exposed to the virus at this point could prove exponentially higher. The question I have that is absolutely ignored by main-stream media and government-run health organizations,  is why natural immunity is not a part of the current conversation?  

Dr. Peter McCullough, a widely published American cardiologist and a tireless advocate for truth, maintains that immunity from a previous COVID infection is robust, complete, and durable. He is by no means alone. Dr. Richard Urso, a physician out of Houston, Texas suggests that natural immunity is the “achilles heel of the vaccine program, and if you are COVID recovered you are immune competent.” He emphatically argues that vaccine status should not supplant immune status. 

Tens of doctors from the St. Elizabeth Healthcare System in Ohio submitted a compelling letter to their administration on Sept. 1, logically and completely outlining their concerns with vaccine mandates. A portion of their very first point states that “Natural immunity is at least equal to and likely superior to vaccine immunity, yet this has not been a part of the discussion for unclear reasons. A majority of healthcare providers in our system are declining the vaccine due to prior infection and already having sufficient immunity to COVID-19.”  As many of my more reluctant readers like to point out, I am not a doctor. This is true, of course. But why is it that there are hundreds of doctors who ARE qualified to have an opinion regarding natural immunity, but the door to scientific collaboration is all but closed. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and World Health Organization (WHO) continue to be the loudest voices in the land, shouting one opinion and one opinion alone, that getting the vaccine is all that matters.  

This vaccine is leaky. Which means that a vaccinated person can still acquire the virus and spread the virus. It does not provide the sterilizing immunity (which means you can’t carry the virus) that most other vaccines offer. This is why many argue that calling it a vaccine is incorrect, as it does not provide immunity in the traditional sense of the word. However, becoming naturally infected and recovering from the virus does. Traditional herd immunity in a population is recognized by the combination of those that have antibodies due to natural infection, and those that have been immunized.  

Interestingly, the WHO actually changed their definition of herd immunity three times last year.  

On June 9, 2020, the WHO website stated that, “Herd immunity is the indirect protection from an infectious disease that happens when a population is immune either through vaccination or immunity developed through previous infection.” 

On Nov. 13, 2020, the WHO website read that, “‘Herd immunity,’ also known as ‘population immunity’ is a concept used for vaccination, in which a population can be protected from a certain virus if a threshold of vaccination is reached. Herd immunity is achieved by protecting people from a virus, not by exposing them to it.”  In other words, the part about immunity developed through previous infection had actually been removed. While this change wasn’t a secret, it certainly is curious.  

The definition has been edited again and today reads as a combination of the two previous definitions, while adding that the WHO supports achieving herd immunity through vaccination, not by allowing a disease to spread. While you would have to literally be living under a rock to not know that the WHO, and every other worldwide health agency supports vaccination, where oh where is the discourse regarding immunity through natural infection? Why can’t we recognize that our world could be in a much more positive place in regards to the war on this virus, if we actually counted the naturally immune as a help? While I’m not suggesting we forego the vaccination campaign, I AM suggesting that we follow the science and track and use natural immunity in our quest to get back to normal. Why isn’t natural immunity the gold standard when it comes to workplace safety?

The COVID recovered were excluded from the clinical trials for vaccine development. Dr. Urso, backed by America’s Frontline Doctors, suggest this cohort was excluded due to their increased chance of adverse events. Frankly, they would have skewed the data, he said. It is believed to be dangerous to vaccinate immune competent individuals. It creates a hyper immune response that could result in significant tissue injury and death. Why are we being told that the vaccine is safe for all, when there are many portions of the population that were not included in the safety trials, COVID recovered being one such portion? And what kind of safety trials are being performed on the boosters? Dr. Michael Yeadon, Pfizer’s former chief scientist and vice president purports that top up vaccines don’t require safety studies and he is publicly concerned that any gene you like could be put in them.  

A recent widely publicized study coming out of Israel found that the natural immune protection developed after a COVID infection does “considerably” more to ward off the Delta variant than the two doses of Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine.  “This is the largest real-world observational study comparing natural immunity, gained through previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, to vaccine-induced immunity, afforded by the BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine,” the study said. Natural immunity was proven 13X more effective than vaccines at stopping the Delta variant. Simply put, the COVID recovered have a .0086 chance of getting COVID again.  

I have written in this space before regarding similar other known viruses that are proven to have antibody longevity. Those who had SARS-CoV-1 in 2002-2003 were still found to be immune 17 years later, and those who survived the influenza pandemic of 1918 were still immune to the H1N1 outbreak in 2009-2010 a stunning 92 years later.  

I’ve also shared before that my family had COVID back in November. While I slept in the same bed as my COVID positive husband the entire time, I never became ill. I remember having the worst flu of my life back in 2003. I wonder if it was SARS-CoV-1. COVID (SARS-CoV-2) is 80 percent similar to SARS-CoV-1. Dr. Urso reported that those who had SARS 1 are still immune competent against SARS 2. I have to wonder if this is my story. If our medical community was half as focused on figuring out who is immune competent as they are about a needle in every arm, I’m sure we would have many “safe and effective” ways to test for natural immunity by now. Instead, we have antibody tests that are claimed to be wrong 50 percent of the time. And many healthcare facilities refuse to even offer such tests.  

Dr. Robert Malone, one of the creators of the original mRNA technology expertly believes that you can’t vaccinate your way out of a pandemic, during a pandemic. This is “fundamental virology 1A,” he says. This will drive vaccine resistant mutants. “What we are being told are fundamental lies,” he says.  

So back to my original questions. Where has the concept of herd immunity gone, and why aren’t the naturally immune included in that important goal? Today I see so many hateful comments on social media regarding the unvaccinated not being deserving of a bed in the ICU or any type of health care whatsoever. And that the unvaccinated are selfish at the very least and murderers at worst. From what we have always known regarding immunity acquired through infection, I have a completely different take on those who are willing to let their own immune system perform the job that it was miraculously created to do. In my opinion, these individuals are vital in our fight toward herd immunity. We should be grateful for every person who lives among us who can no longer get or spread this awful disease. Their immunity should be confirmed and celebrated. And counted.  

Advertisement
Advertisement
Subscribe
Notify of
guest
148 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Sejica Jay
Guest
Sejica Jay
2 months ago

Well said. Very well said. No dollars to be made on natural immunity. No civil liberties to take away either.

Randy D Brosius
Guest
Randy D Brosius
2 months ago

Excellent article. Why am I not reading more articles like this one? Follow real science and what has been taught for years. Could it be this goes against big pharma and $$$? Please share this article as much as possible.

Leslie Cariaso
Guest
Leslie Cariaso
1 month ago

Yes pls. I hope this reaches more people.

Micki Mulder
Guest
Micki Mulder
2 months ago

I wonder why the focus doesn’t shift to antibody testing. Such testing would give us more accurate knowledge of personal immunity and indicate when or if a booster is needed. Everyone IS NOT the same!

Melissa White
Guest
Melissa White
2 months ago
Reply to  Micki Mulder

Because antibody counts diminish in about three months. Also not everyone develops them. My family had it 3/20, and I, my husband & son tested positive for antibodies, while our six year old daughter did not. We caught it from her most likely.

Lisa O
Guest
Lisa O
2 months ago
Reply to  Melissa White

I still have mine 10 months later. I just retested yesterday so we will see. I think testing for antibodies would be money well spent and help curtail the vilification of the unvaccinated. As it stands now, everyone without a vaccine is lumped together but naturally immune people are playing a big part in herd immunity. I get tested monthly. If I fall below the therapeutic threshold I will get the shot.

Kim
Guest
Kim
2 months ago
Reply to  Lisa O

Where do you get the antibody tests? I can’t seem to find any around me. I had Covid November 2020 and fought it for several months. Finally back to myself in May 2021

Melissa
Guest
Melissa
2 months ago
Reply to  Kim

You have to get blood drawn. I got mine done at City MD I believe.

Whtraven
Guest
Whtraven
2 months ago
Reply to  Kim

Lab Corp. there’s an office in Centralia. There may be another closer to you.

Kelly O'Leary
Guest
Kelly O'Leary
2 months ago
Reply to  Kim

I get tested at a local urgent care. Total access urgent care. AIMS lab

K K
Guest
K K
1 month ago
Reply to  Kim

LabCorp has nationwide locations. You can also go through their doctor to get the lab order for $10. You can literally arrange it all online and just pull up to a location and you phone will notify you to go straight to the phlebotomist. 2 days later, the results were available online. Even better it is the QUANTITATIVE test that measures the number of antibodies and which ones. Vaccines only initiate S protein antibodies while natural infection will show positive for N protein antibodies as well. LabCorp seems to be supporting natural humoral immunity studies. They have largest data sets for their studies as well because they are such a large provider of lab services that they have more samples.

Joyce Broyles
Guest
Joyce Broyles
2 months ago
Reply to  Lisa O

Where do you get tested and do you get your titer count..that is important as well?

Melissa
Guest
Melissa
2 months ago
Reply to  Lisa O

Interesting take. I’m not a doctor. I do know someone who got over COVID once and was fine. The second time it gave him a 105°F fever for ten days and had him literally on the floor.

Debbie
Guest
Debbie
2 months ago
Reply to  Melissa

Yes, I hate to admit it, but I also know someone who had it much worse the second go ’round.

J C
Guest
J C
2 months ago
Reply to  Melissa

You have to elaborate more than “I know someone”…

Age of the person, weight, underlying conditions, etc…

No one is saying if you’ve previously had it you are not going to get it again. The point is having previous infection teaches your immune system to fight CV but if you have health issues or are older you definitely aren’t as bulletproof.

Rob
Guest
Rob
1 month ago
Reply to  Melissa

Probability-wise, it is more likely that the first infection was a false positive than a reinfection occurring. Like someone else pointed out, context matters. The argument regarding natural immunity is focused on healthy recovered individuals, and especially children!

Barb
Guest
Barb
1 month ago
Reply to  Rob

Agree….the first infection in these people was probably a common cold virus showing a false positive in the Covid test which is common. The tests are known to pick up any fragments of cold virus. The second infection was the actual Covid virus.

Jan
Guest
Jan
1 month ago
Reply to  Melissa

What is also not mentioned in national media is that many that have been double vaccinated and have caught Covid after vaccination are the majority that are sick and in the hospital ER’s. Boone County ER’s are full of double vaccinated people. So the media is spreading lies that the majority in the hospital and the spreaders of Covid are the unvaccinated. Just not true. And many nurses and doctors are getting pretty tired of treating the already vaccinated as well as yes, the few that haven’t been vaccinated and not being able to tell the truth to the public for fear of losing their jobs. If you want to know the truth, start asking the people going in and out of the ER’s if they have been vaccinated. Most are being treated for 20% less their normal oxygen level. Which can be very scary.

matt
Guest
matt
1 month ago
Reply to  Jan

Sounds like another conspiracy theory to me. We have several nurses in the family/extended family, and according to them all of the sick people coming in are unvaccinated. This is in several hospitals throughout the west coast.

Melissa
Guest
Melissa
2 months ago
Reply to  Lisa O

I did read that if you do get over COVID, and also get vaccinated, you’re better equipped to deal with further variants.

Nico
Guest
Nico
2 months ago
Reply to  Melissa

2 times is the number from one study. We are talking .002% vs .004% chance difference.

ByronH
Guest
ByronH
10 days ago
Reply to  Melissa

The vaccines were developed from the original Alpha variant (Wuhan) and has never been updated. Think about whether that makes sense or not that it helps with future variants when you already have natural immunity from something likely more current (Delta?).

Debbie
Guest
Debbie
2 months ago
Reply to  Lisa O

That’s exactly it…everybody is lumped together into either vaccinated or not.

Vic
Guest
Vic
1 month ago
Reply to  Lisa O

What is the therapeutic threshold

Tammy Jett
Guest
Tammy Jett
1 month ago
Reply to  Lisa O

I had Covid exactly a year ago and still have antibodies. I hate being made to feel like an insensitive person or stupid one because I refuse the vaccine. I am trusting my natural immunity, and I would appreciate more data concerning reinfections after having Covid. That information is nonexistent.

David Girtz
Guest
David Girtz
7 days ago
Reply to  Lisa O

Yup! Red Cross used to test for Antibodies until suddenly they stopped in July! I gave blood and got tested positive for antibodies! Why did they stop!!! Because no one seems to care that recovery from Covid may be as good or better than vaccines…

Glen McLintock
Guest
Glen McLintock
2 months ago
Reply to  Melissa White

Of course antibodies decline over time. If everyone were carrying around all the antibodies produced by their bodies for every virus we’ve ever contracted in our entire lives our blood would be as thick as molasses. It’s the T and B memory cells that are important. While antibodies dimish and fade away over time the memory cells are there to stimulate creation of new antibodies the moment a memory held virus is identified. People still alive from the 1918-1919 Spanish Flu pandemic were found to have been still immune to H1N1 in 2008-2010. 92 Years later! This very example was on the Mayo Clinic’s website where it was talking about herd immunity until the “everbody needs the vaccine” narrative became dogma.

Last edited 2 months ago by Glen McLintock
Ezzy withthefacts
Guest
Ezzy withthefacts
2 months ago
Reply to  Melissa White

Melissa whhhite please speak for yourself!…..everyone’s immunity is not the same! It is not TRUE that the antibodies diminish in 3 months. Where did you get this information from? Thats an actual question for you…think about your answer. Next thing is ,You must have failed immunology class in the dictorate program you graduated from right??? Regular nurses and doctors dont always have this information so stop w the false bullshit. Where did you get this information from? I had covid too last year and I STILL have antibodies a whole year later which proves that everybody’s immune system is NOT THE SAME. So what about someone like me who has an immune system that is wprking the way its supposed to? Whats your solution for someone like me? Should all of us be vaccinated when we have immunity already? Does that makes sense? Comments like yours are a problem and causes confusion. Too many people w lil to no facts are acting as if they really know.I am a healthcare worker and there are doctors and nurses that have been on the frontline for close to 2 yrs now taking care of covid pts w unvaccinated and they are choosing to not get vaccinated based on the facts we actually see in the hospital. Do some real researchbefore you make blanket statemwnts as if they are true….smh at you all

Klassi2000
Guest
Klassi2000
2 months ago

You are absolutely right. We earned our immunity the hard way without making big Pham rich. I did have a steroidal inhaler I used twice, so they got about $2 from me and my covid experience. We’ve paid for our immunity in a different way. We had to live through being sick, and now being shamed and fired from our lively hoods. Still, I look at my natural immunity as a gift from God. If you gather data from those who have been “vaccinated” with this gene modifier/ gene therapy shot, you may come to the conclusion that in order for everyone to be immune, everyone will have to get the actual disease. But would we shame those who have not had the virus yet? Blame them for the incubation of variants? Or would that be in humane and cruel?

Vic
Guest
Vic
1 month ago
Reply to  Klassi2000

Well said

CYA
Guest
CYA
1 month ago
Reply to  Klassi2000

Well Said. Just because one has been vaccinated does not prevent the individual from contracting and spreading COVID. Case in point Mid Sep 2021: both my house mate (Ret Army Ranger) and I contracted COVID at the same time (pretty sure he is the one that brought it home). He is fully vaccinated, I am NOT vaccinated. He was coughing up a lung, extreme fatigue, high fever, expelling all fluids from both ends, everything smelled like diesel fuel and admitted there were a couple of days that he just want to “give up.” ME 1st 2.5 days: Friday evening a bit of a sore throat. Sat & Sun possible slight elevation in temp (not sure no aches or chills), extreme fatigue, boogerites. Mon: telework all day (DoD Civ) still have boogerites and fatigue (not as bad as Sat & Sun), and taking Mucinex for the stuff trying to slide down my throat. Thurs I call Dr to get an apt as i think I’m starting to get a Sinus infection. In office, drive up, lab techs try to touch my brain 3 times (flu, covid, 3rd poss for sinus infection) Dr calls me that evening and “Surprise you have Covid! House mate went the Monday after and got tested, positive for Covid…

Lesley
Guest
Lesley
1 month ago
Reply to  Melissa White

The antibody tests today are not reliable. They need new, more accurate tests which they won’t supply until all the world has been vaccinated. This is so wrong. Everyone should test for antibodies before taking this vaccine is my belief.

Ana
Guest
Ana
1 month ago
Reply to  Melissa White

It’s not really antibodies that play a big role in immunity, it’s memory B and T cells

Lynn Marshall
Guest
Lynn Marshall
20 days ago
Reply to  Melissa White

Actually the antibody tests, test for 2 different types of antibodies. There are the igm antibodies that detect acute infection and the igg which detect longer lasting antibodies. I needed a positive neutralizing antibody test to visit my daughter in Vienna because unlike the US most European countries recognize natural immunity. I had Covid 10 months earlier and not surprisingly tested negative for antibodies detecting acute infection and positive for the igg antibodies. The comment made by my doctor stated that my antibodies indicated that I had either recovered from Covid or been vaccinated. Which baffles me why I may still be required to be vaccinated to keep my job when I know at least 30 people who got Covid after being vaccinated. In Vienna the recovered and vaccinated are both categorized as protected.

linda
Guest
linda
7 days ago
Reply to  Melissa White

I have mine after 18 months. Antibodies do tend to diminish. It’s your T cell Memory that kicks them back into gear once you are re-exposed to the virus.

Simon
Guest
Simon
2 months ago
Reply to  Micki Mulder

Because fully vaccinated people usually test negative on the antibody test.

J C
Guest
J C
2 months ago
Reply to  Simon

You have to get a blood draw. The finger prick is highly inaccurate.

Christina
Guest
Christina
2 months ago

THANK YOU! I am one of those who recovered from COVID 19 (back in March 2020) and have faith in my immune system ,that fought HARD to beat the virus, to continue to protect me. (P.s. your reporter actually did a story on my experience back then 🙂 ). I have no intention of getting the vaccine offered. I was so glad to see the study out of Israel and the fact that it confirmed what my intuition told me. However, the fact that i am an “outcast” because i am not vaccinated is extremely concerning. Thank you for bringing all of this to light . I APPRECIATE IT

Rusty
Guest
Rusty
2 months ago
Reply to  Christina

This same study says being vaccinated and having natural immunity is 2x effective than natural immunity alone (and that’s only after one of the two shots required)

Jenni
Guest
Jenni
2 months ago
Reply to  Rusty

Yes. But bottom line is, why the demonization of those with natural immunity and unvaccinated, when that natural immunity alone is stronger than vaccine-aquired immunity. I had covid in january, it was pretty bad, and what kept my husband alive was the fact that we stayed at home and away from the er, where he would have been put on a ventilator. Don’t forget the money they make for every covid patient hooked to a vent. When they have proven to have an irregularly high morbidity rate compared to with other uses of ventilators. Give your body time to heal itself. My husbands oxygen steadily got worse and reached the low seventies. He recovered. After day 14, his condition started to improve. I am a smoker and it never reached my lungs. He is a nonsmoker and it did. I did worry that we would die. Our daughters never showed any symptoms. They are both 12. I would like to know how strong natural immunity is for those who were asymptomatic?
But my point was, there should be no shaming people with natural immunity over not getting vaccinated when they are protected already much more than those with just vaccination. I feel safe now, everyone we know has had it pretty much. And anyone else has been vaccinated.

Craig Sawyer
Guest
Craig Sawyer
2 months ago
Reply to  Rusty

.2 to .4 is two times not a real advantage is it

Kat
Guest
2 months ago

The reason is that Democrats have politicized the vaccine/masks for control. This is an excellent article. Thank you.

David Kerr
Guest
David Kerr
2 months ago
Reply to  Kat

Your belief has nothing to do with reality! Stating that “Democrats have politicized the Vaccines/ masks for control” is promoting misinformation! Republicans have consistently made this a political issue (remember republicans said it was a hoax??) People are trying to save lives. It’s an airborne virus- masks keep the virus from spreading, that is a scientific fact!!

ASHLEY
Guest
ASHLEY
2 months ago
Reply to  David Kerr

You are the one spreading misinformation. Democrats from the beginning of this pandemic have been spreading lies. Masks do not protect one from COVID, the vaccine does not protect one from COVID. Stop spreading absolute lies and trying to play politics to cover up your apparent lack of awareness and knowledge on this matter.

Rachel
Guest
Rachel
2 months ago
Reply to  David Kerr

I’m sorry what makes u an expert? Cause I caught Delta while wearing a mask. The fact that I have antibodies should keep me from getting the vaccines. But no Democrats Nyc fanatics wants to endanger me by force or get fired. I think u should abstain from making any comments and maybe do better research.

Tracy
Guest
Tracy
2 months ago
Reply to  David Kerr

Do you honestly believe that a microscopic virus cannot pass through the fabric on a mask or even two? Seriously? Looks like a gaping hole to something that small – can pass through without even trying.

Emma
Guest
Emma
1 day ago
Reply to  David Kerr

You mean like when Pelosi said she doesn’t trust the vaccine because it was developed while trump was president. I see

Fozman
Guest
Fozman
2 months ago
Reply to  Kat

What control do you think they want? To have people wear masks for no reason? The government, either branch, is not capable of pulling off something so nefarious.

Simon
Guest
Simon
2 months ago
Reply to  Fozman

We never know their true intentions. Here are some scenarios:

  1. They truly believe the masks provide protection.
  2. It’s an excuse to test their limits(of power over people).
  3. It’s an excuse to train the citizens to follow governmental instructions without much thought(no individual thinking allowed, let the government do the thinking and the citizens must do as we say, more authority for the power-hungry).

I think it’s a combination of all three.

Last edited 2 months ago by Simon
ALAN ROUSE
Guest
ALAN ROUSE
2 months ago
Reply to  Simon

Hmmm. There are others that see this. Well put.

Emma
Guest
Emma
1 day ago
Reply to  Fozman

More nefarious things have been done by many govts including ours. Remember forced sterilization

Angela
Guest
Angela
2 months ago

Thank you. I wish this information was in the media. Hateful, angry comments are (no words). We need objective, professional truth.

Jack Burton
Guest
Jack Burton
2 months ago

Apparently, we have 80% of the population with covid antibodies. Heard immunity should be right around the corner until the vaccine-resistant variant out of Colombia arrives.

Bravenewworld
Guest
Bravenewworld
2 months ago
Reply to  Jack Burton

Doesn’t even have to come from another country, there’s plenty of proof that covid2 is airborne and jumps species at will. Even with 100% vaccination the virus could mutate in the wild then jump right back to us. Who’s going to vaccinate all the deer.

Brad
Guest
Brad
2 months ago

great reporting Heidi

Kat
Guest
Kat
2 months ago

Excellent article – thank you for being a real reporter – I hope more people wake up and start using common sense and real science instead of being brainwashed with lies by people in power that are perpetuating this Covid so they can control and kill our country

Cindy Lester
Guest
Cindy Lester
2 months ago

You do a brilliant jobs breaking it down to the basics and I look forward to forwarding every article you write…I have been (why feels like) screaming this same thing. What about the naturally immune?! It is the neglect of this category of people that causes me to believe the whole immunization thing is far more sinister. Thank you so saying the hard things!

Michael
Guest
Michael
2 months ago

Interesting article. There has been a lot of reporting about the Israeli retrospective study in the mainstream media and it’s not being ignored or hidden. However, it wasn’t mentioned that by far the best immune response found in that study actually came from previously infected individuals who later got one vaccination shot. That augmented natural immunity substantially. And yet even with this information the Israelis were the first country to recommend a 3rd booster vaccination. Also, if natural immunity is so prevalent what can you say about the current wave of infections which has overwhelmed not only both our Vancouver hospitals which I work at but hospitals all over the US. Yesterday there were 1500 COVID deaths around the country, mainly in the unvaccinated. Very few medical professionals will be in the camp that supports natural immunity developed at the expense of a massive number of new deaths and hospitalizations which is what we are seeing now. Even some ardent supporters of targeting vaccinations for higher risk people (i.e. don’t vaccinate healthy kids unless you want to due to their very low risks of hospitalizations or death) do not support letting natural immunity take over instead of vaccinating. It is tragic how we are seeing this wave of unvaccinated patients being hospitalized with some dying and it’s now much more in the younger population between 20-59. It’s great that natural immunity appears so protective (although this work needs more confirmation to be sure of these results since there were some issues with this being a retrospective study). But what will the cost be in hospitalizations, long term complications, and deaths without vaccinations. It’s an ugly trade off.

Bravenewworld
Guest
Bravenewworld
2 months ago
Reply to  Michael

Actually those daily numbers are misleading as there usually an agrogate of multiple days that are placed into record in a single day. There’s a mathematician in Florida that was trying to fix the way covid2 deaths are reported to give a clearer picture of the actual death toll. Again that goes in line with this article that the official narrative has flaws.

Bravenewworld
Guest
Bravenewworld
2 months ago
Reply to  Bravenewworld

If you were to average out the deaths worldwide then compare them to the total deaths covid2 accounts for, only .08 percent of deaths per year. Less than a tenth of a percent uptick and the world literally stopped. That’s not the virus that’s our reaction. We need to stop the fear mongering and look at the issue with clear minds.

Bram Williams
Guest
Bram Williams
2 months ago
Reply to  Michael

Natural immunity is being ignored, not sure what planet you’re from, but cdc and the rest of our leadership arer more interested in controlling the narrative as apposed to presenting facts and the truth. We shouldn’t be pushing natural immunity but it should be tested for and recognized as viable protection.

NJ T
Guest
NJ T
2 months ago
Reply to  Bram Williams

I want to know the current ‘unvaccinated’ numbers with a second attribute of having previously recovered from covid. I can’t find numbers anywhere the separate the current cases being reported for the unvaccinated. There are two sub-classes there!

Fin1hms
Guest
Fin1hms
2 months ago
Reply to  Michael

I don’t think anyone is suggesting to not vaccinate and gain herd immunity though natural infection. The author (and many comments here) are simply stating natural immunity should be counted as it seems to be better than 2 doses of Pfizer. The number of recovered plus 1 vaccine was not mentioned. Nor were studies regarding the safety of vaccinating those recovered individuals.

Jeff Rowe
Guest
Jeff Rowe
2 months ago
Reply to  Michael

I keep hearing the same argument about natural immunity as you make. Opponents of natural immunity keep talking about the hospitalizations, deaths, and complications etc. of the unvaccinated. You are confusing the unvaccinated with the naturally immune and they are not the same. The author isn’t saying that those unvaccinated couldn’t or shouldn’t get vaccinated, what she is saying is that natural immunity deserves to be respected as much as vaccinated immunity. Opponents are taking about natural immunity at a cost to people who get the disease/natural immunity at a future point where as the author is looking backwards and seeing what natural immunity has already afforded people. Of course their will be hospitalizations etc if everyone wanted to be naturally immune but you aren’t arguing what the author is arguing. I personally would like to see the REINFECTION rate, death rate, hospitalization rate for the naturally immune but those numbers are nowhere to be found.

Bravenewworld
Guest
Bravenewworld
2 months ago

I’m one of those people with an over agressive immune system, vaccines can be dangerous for me. Yet our politically charged society has no place for my personal safety and would sacrifice my life on the altar of conformity. What they call science is nothing more than a new religion, a psuedo science that quells any discenting ideas or data and only promotes the one truth.

NVCHRISTINE
Guest
NVCHRISTINE
2 months ago

Like others I have been saying this all along. Natural immunity trumps vaccine induced immunity. Employers and educational institutions that are mandating this vaccine without first testing for prior infection should have a class action lawsuit brought against them for discrimination.

All individuals that have recovered from Covid should have all of the same rights given to the vaccinated. But they are not going to get it unless they fight for it.

Emily
Guest
Emily
2 months ago

Totally accurate I’m a nurse I had Covid and my employer is mandating as a condition of employment and stating if I don’t get vaccinated I will be fired

Fin1hms
Guest
Fin1hms
2 months ago
Reply to  Emily

Curious what you and others will do? What if you’re one of the ones that suffers an adverse reaction? Where are the studies citing the safety of vaccinating those with natural immunity? And what of the small studies sighting breakthrough cases in fully vaccinated individuals with previous infections? Almost seeming to neutralize natural immunity?

Amy
Guest
Amy
2 months ago

Thank you for writing this article. I work in healthcare where most of us have had Covid. Many of us chose not to get the vaccine and are being treated very poorly for our choice. We are tested twice a week because we are unvaccinated.
One of the main reasons I decided not to get vaccinated was because a majority of my coworkers with previous infections had a very bad reaction to the vaccine. Several ended up hospitalized or in the ER. Especially those with very high antibody levels. I have continued to follow the data on long term immunity which has been excellent. So for me the risks of side effects do not outweigh the potential benefits.

Fin1hms
Guest
Fin1hms
2 months ago
Reply to  Amy

I feel the same way! Curious as to what were their reaction were and why your employer would still be pushing vaccinations with no studies regarding their safety in previously infected individuals?

Melissa White
Guest
Melissa White
2 months ago

People have been contracting COVID more than once. There’s a pre-k girl who caught it three times in a year of school in my neighborhood. My husband and I are in the film/tv business and get tested 2-3 times per week. One of my husband’s coworkers had Covid in March 2020, around the same time we did, and the coworker recovered from it in about three days. 8 months later he tested positive AGAIN. This time around he had a 105°F fever for a solid ten days and was too exhausted to go to the bathroom, or even answer the door to let my husband bring him some herbal immunity teas. Despite testing positive for antibodies we chose to get the vaccine.

Ligma
Guest
Ligma
2 months ago

Where are the citations for these studies the author is referencing? The one out of Israel claiming natural immunity is 13x more effective than vaccine-acquired immunity for example, where is the link to that study?

Last edited 2 months ago by Ligma
Daniel Sabrowski
Guest
Daniel Sabrowski
1 month ago
Reply to  Ligma

Dr. Moran..highly respected and accomplished virologist. This is his video on the studies with links to them in the description. Enjoy the watch..and read of the studies 🙂
https://youtu.be/_vxe9pJRQcs

Emma
Guest
Emma
1 day ago
Reply to  Ligma

Are you questioning it’s existence or do you need someone to site it for you?

J D
Guest
J D
2 months ago

I have been searching for natural immunity articles daily for months, and the lack of willingness to address this topic (like you have) is disheartening. Thank you for your well-stated and simple questions and arguments. We all can imagine the reason why this concept (natural immunity) doesn’t get the airtime it deserves (doesn’t support the blind narrative), but eventually you would expect the inevitability of its recognition to gain some traction. Baffling. Some great studies out of the Cleveland Clinic early in the summer and more recently out of Israel support your arguments – good luck finding them cited. Even if we simply listened more discerningly to the anecdotes around us, you would hear far more evidence of breakthrough infection vs. double infection (yes I know that someone’s brother’s, sister’s cousin has actually been infected five times by each of the known variants so natural immunity isn’t a real thing – yeah, yeah I get it). Interestingly I have a teenager that most certainly was infected in Dec ’20 – positive PCR test, symptomatic and fully recovered after a few days of flu like symptoms. His likelihood of serious complication from reinfection is absolutely low at this point – far lower than the potential for myocarditis from the required double vaccination to attend his school (which I know is also low). The only articles that you see on natural immunity are the absurd ones that choose to tackle the argument of – choosing to be infected to gain immunity is of greater risk than choosing to take the vaccine. Sure – brilliant concept – easy to write, easy to argue, and frankly a waste of time to read. Or, should you get the double vaccine after you have been naturally infected – again, easy to argue theoretically – by the same people that put on a helmet and wear bubble wrap while getting in their vehicle equipped with airbags and a seatbelt – yep, less risk. Heck let’s throw in four more booster shots while we’re at it! Please continue to challenge those “following the science” and remind them that saying the words and parroting what they read in the media isn’t actually serving the country well.

Aslan
Guest
Aslan
2 months ago
Reply to  J D

If you have natural immunity and your body is protected can you give the virus to others without immunity?

Whtraven
Guest
Whtraven
2 months ago
Reply to  Aslan

Let me start by saying I am not a doctor, nor am I in any medical field, but I’ve been doing a lot of research for myself. My understanding is that everyone except someone who has never been exposed can potentially carry the virus and infect others. The odds are low for vaccinated and naturally immune because I believe it requires reinfection for them to become temporary carriers (symptomatic or asymptomatic).
You are more likely to become infected by someone who is unvaccinated and infected with covid for the first time.

John Ley
Guest
John Ley
2 months ago

This Seattle Times article mentions both natural immunity and vaccinated immunity.

It notes that many, many predictions regarding the COVID-19 pandemic and come and gone, and been wrong.

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/the-covid-endgame-is-the-pandemic-over-already-or-are-there-years-to-go/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=article_inset_1.1

John Ley
Guest
John Ley
2 months ago

Here’s an excellent article on BOOSTING your immune system. That is good for everyone.

https://www.clarkcountytoday.com/news/boosting-your-immune-system-to-stay-healthy-in-era-of-delta-variant-of-covid-19/

Brad
Guest
Brad
2 months ago

You need a promotion Heidi!
truth gets buried and murdered in today’s culture. Phzier 60 billion in profits ,Moderna 35 billion …

Aslan
Guest
Aslan
2 months ago

If a person has natural immunity can they still pass the virus to those without immunity?

Barry P
Guest
Barry P
2 months ago
Reply to  Aslan

It is so rare that you can say nope. Only vaccinated people and without-immunity people can pass the virus.

Aslan
Guest
Aslan
2 months ago
Reply to  Barry P

Thank you

Debbie
Guest
Debbie
2 months ago
Reply to  Aslan

I’m no doctor, so I don’t know. But I don’t take a chance around my 83-year-old (vaccinated) mother-in-law. I believe that I have natural immunity (I’m unvaccinated), but from what I understand, I can still pass the virus to her. Just my opinion.

Immune
Guest
Immune
2 months ago

There shouldn’t be a comparison between vaccinated and unvaccinated. The actual subject that matters is an individual’s level of immunity. The fact is that natural immunity is stronger. Getting the V after recovering from this is like getting a chicken pox V after having chicken pox. I refuse to join the masses in their nonsensical thinking. Natural immunity goes beyond antibodies. Remember T cells and B cells. We all learned about our immune systems in school. If you get vaccinated, it will lessen your symptoms of C, when you get it. It does not keep you from spreading it, it does not make you immune. 95% of those hospitalized with C have at least one of these conditions; obesity, diabetes, or an anxiety/stress disorder. Why has the media been creating much of this stress? Why are there incentives, such as donuts, for getting the V?

Fozman
Guest
Fozman
2 months ago

What, you need a parade for getting over an illness?

Lesley
Guest
Lesley
1 month ago
Reply to  Fozman

You missed the whole point of this article.

SED
Guest
SED
2 months ago

What I would love to know is how many people hospitalized with you know what are diligent with taking vitamins C, D3, and zinc? My husband and I are Covid vaccine-free and regularly take all these vitamins plus more…ie probiotics including fermented foods, quercetin, magnesium citrate….we are counting on these vitamins to boost our immune systems. Back in 4/20 my husband had a very difficult time breathing for about 4 days. I had a bit of an issue. After that, before he gave blood, they tested him for antibodies and it was negative. There was no other reason he had such a hard time breathing, so we believed that test was not accurate. We also try to never wear a mask…unless we are forced to in drs offices and hospitals. My husband also had his spleen removed in 2018 from a bad wreck so he is even more compromised plus he has RA. Personally, I believe the rift vitamins are keeping us healthy!

Lisa O
Guest
Lisa O
2 months ago

Thank you! The fact that this isn’t even being discussed is a source of concern. Why would natural immunity of recovered people be ignored? Unfortunately I can come up with only 2 reasons…money and control. How disheartening is that!

Aslan
Guest
Aslan
2 months ago
Reply to  Lisa O

That is the same conclusion I have come to and it is very sad:-(

Toni vlasits
Guest
Toni vlasits
2 months ago

Thank you so, so much. I have had covid and have read so many articles and some scientific studies about how strong our immunity is and it is continually ignored by health professionals….even my dentist today….and I am told I am selfish, etc and ….Toni Vlasits…Adhikari

Margaret
Guest
Margaret
2 months ago

Recent studies show that people who have had a COVID infection likely have natural immunity that appears to be superior to immunity from man-made products. Natural immunity evidenced by titer tests counts as immunity for other diseases targeted by vaccines, and should count for COVID too.

Margaret
Guest
Margaret
2 months ago

Informative article includes links to 15 studies on natural immunity after a COVID infection.

J D
Guest
J D
2 months ago
Reply to  Margaret

Brilliant Margaret – I’ve read many of these over the last few months and it was great to see them all in one place. I appreciate your digging well into the bowels of the online search to find authentic, truly objective research. Are you actually saying yet another deeply validated article from the likes of usatoday that shows up on page 1 of the search may not be true..5535920001.

Joyce Broyles
Guest
Joyce Broyles
2 months ago

Where can I get my antibodies tested that can actually show me the titer count? Is it helpful to also know which variant? Pretty positive ours was Delta..Can Carter blood bank do this? NO ONE ADDRESSES THIS PROBLEM WITH DR. MCCULLOUGH PROTOCOL IF THEY SUFFER WITH SEVERE CHRONIC GUT ISSUES IN THE RISK OF THESE MEDD..ITS A REAL PROMBLEM FOR MANY THAT CAN OUT WEIGH THE RISK..LIKE US WITH DIVERTICULITISCOLON BURST OR YOUR PANCRETITIS FLARES ..WHICH RISK IS GREATER..THIS ISSUE OF A HUGE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE THAT WANT TO DO THE PROTOCOL BUT HAS OTHER CHRONIC ISSUES THAT PROHIBITS THEM..LIKE MY DAUGHTER WITH MS..PLEASE HELP US!!!!

Carol Denzer
Guest
Carol Denzer
2 months ago

I just don’t understand the motivation of the WHO, CDC and the Biden Administration. Let’s get on with living.

Debbie
Guest
Debbie
2 months ago

My husband had Sars1 while he was in China years ago. He became infected with Sars2 last year. We isolated, and luckily, his symptoms weren’t bad. He didn’t feel great, but on only one of those days did he have to take lie down. I either never got it, or was asymptomatic.

We are among the unvaccinated, and have terrible family arguments over it from outside family, who insist we should get vaccinated. We are very conscious of our health, and consider ourselves to be healthy, even probably more so than people younger than we are. I’m 59, he’s 55.

Thank you for an article which voices many of my own feelings. Why haven’t more studies been done on natural immunity?

Debbie
Guest
Debbie
2 months ago

Are the numbers of ill and dead from Covid19 in China correct? My husband and I were thinking there must be so many people there who are naturally immune, after having gone through SARS1. So, we looked up the numbers. Less than 4,000 deaths? Is that correct? It can’t be. But if so, how has the world not seen this and recognized natural immunity? My husband had SARS1 and did get Covid19, but his Covid19 case was mild. Perhaps because he already had immunity?

So many questions.

NKW RPH
Guest
NKW RPH
2 months ago
Reply to  Debbie

The Chinese Communist Party cannot be trusted. 4000 is a made-up number. I watched a documentary about what happened in Wuhan and there were THOUSANDS of urns at the funeral homes with very long lines of family members coming to pick up their loved ones.

Rhonda
Guest
Rhonda
2 months ago

Thank you Heidi for your BRAVERY IN STANDING UP FOR THE FREE, AND BASIC TRUTH. WE APPLAUD YOU.

Debbie
Guest
Debbie
2 months ago

We have good friends that went to get their second shot on a Monday. He got sick with Covid that Thursday, and she got it on Saturday. They think they got it at the pharmacy, while getting their shots!

No hospitalization, but they were both very sick. Go figure!

MCJ
Guest
MCJ
2 months ago

Great article, very informative with credible contributors. Monte in Atlanta

Jerry
Guest
Jerry
2 months ago

I am one of 70 Respiratory Therapist at a large So.Cal Hospital who will not take the experimental mRNA jab. Many of us, as you can imagine, have already had the virus(myself included) and therefor, also have Natural Immunity, we are however being required to take the Swab-test twice a week or the jab. I building a case to present to administration that Natural Immunity is superior to the any of the jabs.

Lesley
Guest
Lesley
1 month ago
Reply to  Jerry

I wish there were more like you!! The Greek government put a mandate on healthcare workers in September. Take the jab or you are on unpaid leave. Many took the jab and some didn’t. The government has now come out saying they will not mandate vaccines anymore. And that it’s time to give freedom back to the vaccinated. They are allowed to gather in bars and clubs and dance while the unvaccinated cannot. The unvaccinated include anyone who has recovered from Covid more than 6-months ago.

Dr. Kecia Waddell
Guest
2 months ago

Count my immunity IN! I’ve never been a burden on our health system [praise God]. I don’t have as much as a single cavity in my teeth… I don’t know why my immune system seems to be strong but TRUST I am NOT THE ENEMY in this pandemic. #tryseamoss

Dave Lamvy
Guest
Dave Lamvy
2 months ago

Heidi, Thanks for the “breath of fresh air” when it comes to covid-19 immunity! Please don’t give up on educating as many people as possible. Natural immunity should be acceptable in lieu of vaccination (in this case gene therapy). Well done!

David
Guest
David
2 months ago

Great article. You’ve nailed all of the relevant points. A great follow-up would be to cite all of the international scientific studies which point to low cost preventatives and treatments for covid some of which are astounding in their simplicity; by now we’ve all heard of ivermectin but who would have thought that mouth wash and black cumin are effective, too?

Brad G Johnson
Guest
2 months ago

I had covid for 3 months starting November 2019. Nobody knew what it was. I started finding videos coming out of Wuhan China at the time, and thought I wonder what the chance that there is the level for lab there a quick Google search said there was. What a coincidence!

I’ve been following Israel since they started their vaccination campaign as it was an ideal test place as vaccines were given at the same time heavily documented same conditions same demographics etc. You can imagine my surprise, when the results were exactly as predicted by the neanderthal medical knowledge we have known for decades, and did away with a year-and-a-half ago. The rationale of course needs no explaining,… This is a novel virus, so we can’t simply apply traditional well understood medical science, we need to assume that by definition of “novel”that a novel approach and mindset should also be used. Similar to homeopathy, although in an inverse manner, by making one’s own body, create only the disease-causing protein, we can toughen up individuals, by allowing the disease-causing protein to circulate in the bloodstream, the process is synergistically bolstered by it’s feature of being narrowly targeted. For those who don’t understand, it’s similar to a precision automated drone strike. It will only optimally Target, exact copies of what it is looking for, that’s not damaging structures which may look very similar but are not the same.

Whtraven
Guest
Whtraven
2 months ago

Thank you!!! I’ve been digging deep on the internet. Ive been reading medical results on antibody longevity studies. I’ve taken part in panel discussions. I’ve looked at how other countries are treating their naturally immune with their vaccine passport system. Ive tracked down sources for the numbers being reported in the media of the likelihood of reinfections amongst the naturally immune. (That 2.3 times more likely to get reinfected number that is currently all over the place is clarified (or rather muddied) on the CDC site as being 2.3 times more likely than a vaccinated person to become reinfected, but there’s not enough data on the vaccinated. So it’s literally a math problem that is missing the other factor and so has no answer.)
In May, when I got the virus, I was asked to donate plasma and share my antibodies. Just a few short months later I’m being disinvited from a craft group (all vaccinated people—some of whom were concerned for their safety by my presence as an unvaccinated individual with natural immunity) and I am unable to dine at certain restaurants because a vaccine card is required as proof (but of what exactly?).
Most vaccinated are aware that they can carry and spread the virus, but somehow it’s the unvaccinated (children, the naturally immune, and those who have yet to be exposed at all) that are the villains? Why is anyone a villain? Aren’t we all in this together? We were, but I guess not since we became the vaccinated and the unvaccinated.

Jim
Guest
Jim
2 months ago
Reply to  Heidi Wetzler

The fundamental problem with this approach is many many have to suffer and some die in order to allow natural immunity to work, while at the same time overwhelming our hospital systems with every one who is sick at the same time. Most people reading your article know of someone who has died or suffered with more severe COVID. That individual would most likely have avoided that fate by choosing vaccination. There are also very real and long term consequences for some especially after more severe disease which is much more common in the unvaccinated. The vast majority of those with severe illness and on ventilators filling ICUs today are unfortunately subscribing to your approach, most of which would not be happening if they were vaccinated. Critically thinking the answer is clear at this point, if you are not yet vaccinated and are eligible please get one.

Lesley
Guest
Lesley
1 month ago
Reply to  Whtraven

We were in this together until the weapon came out. The vaccine. Then it quickly divided the people. In Greece, you are only considered to have natural immunity if you have recovered from the virus in the last 6 months. After that, they believe the natural immunity has waned and you better get the vaccine if you want to be a good citizen and not kill everyone around you. Or clog up the hospital system.

Mick Stephens
Guest
Mick Stephens
2 months ago

So very true. The unvaccinated are being labelled “Health Risks” to the vaccinated and shunned from all activities in society. The chance of dying from covid is very low (particularly if you are reasonably healthy and no serious health issues. From what we know about Covid we would have approximately 99% innate herd immunity from Covid if we had just let it go through on it’s own (of course social distancing, healthy living, promote outdoor activities etc). But no, lockdowns and forced vaccinations and then separate the vaccinated from the non-vaccinated. The world may pay a heavy price for the actions of greed and control.

Eric "BIG" Fella
Guest
Eric "BIG" Fella
2 months ago

Little or no discussion of natural immunity because IT’S ALL ABOUT THE SHOT. Nothing else. EVERYTHING points to that.

Chloe
Guest
Chloe
2 months ago

In France we recognize natural immunity, and a recovery from covid is one of 3 conditions (vaccine OR antigen/PCR test within 72 hours OR recovery) entitling one to the health pass. When I see how natural immunity is perplexingly being completely ignored in the US I’m happy to be here!

Lesley
Guest
Lesley
1 month ago
Reply to  Chloe

In Greece it’s only recognized if you have recovered from it in the last 6-months.

Debbie Klaene
Guest
Debbie Klaene
2 months ago

My husband I both had COVID over the Christmas holidays. We recovered without hospitalization but we’re very sick. We have decided to not be vaccinated because we believe we have strong natural immunity, which has recently been confirmed by positive antibody tests. I want to work toward having natural immunity recognized by the medical community and the government. Does anyone know if there Is there a group working toward this goal?

Living in the Real World
Guest
Living in the Real World
1 month ago
Reply to  Debbie Klaene

And the people you infect while you are building your immunity?? Who cares as long as you are ok??

Lesley
Guest
Lesley
1 month ago

They already have immunity from being sick last year. What’s the threat??

NotMarriedToMyThoughts
Guest
NotMarriedToMyThoughts
2 months ago

I agree completely that natural immunity needs to be included in the conversion more. What has my hackles up just as much if not more though, is the question of why aren’t studies being done here in the US on the efficacy of natural immunity compared to the vaccines we have circulating. If a study has been done, I haven’t seen it. Why is the “us or them” vaccine narrative pushed to extent of suppressing important science that will help resolve the pandemic?!

dan f`
Guest
dan f`
2 months ago
Democrats are Evil
Guest
Democrats are Evil
1 month ago

Why don’t’ we celebrate the naturally Immune? Because that would NOT follow the modern-day narrative of “the exception is the RULE“. Because if we change the narrative, that would me ALL Lives Matter, not just Black Lives or White lives or Whatever Lives… Because then all people are important and have a voice, not just the special interests ones – you know all the people screaming to the world how unique and different and special they are, while ignoring, if not shaming others for not accepting their different way of life/culture. Or perhaps if we celebrate our own natural immunities, we are celebrating what our Creator has designed and instilled into us – something precious and wonderful – and we cant have that on our minds! No – We must live a in fear based society, like good little barn-yard animals, and trust that the care-takers will always have our best interests (and vaccines) at heart! <sarc: on>

Jennifer Owen
Guest
Jennifer Owen
1 month ago

THANK YOU for writing and publishing this perspective and supporting information. I had an experience similar to yours and my antibody tests indicated IgG “long term” antibodies 16 months after I was sick in Feb 2020 and that kept me from getting Covid when my husband and 2 friends tested positive and were sick with Covid symptoms in May 2021. He recovered but since he works in real estate and construction for a health system in NY he was forced to get the shot on Sunday Sept. 26 or face termination on Monday Sept. 27. He has been feverish and miserable all week because his natural antibodies are reacting to the shot. We hope there are no long term side-effects to follow since he has a congenital heart defect and was already infected. Having to choose your job over your own healthcare for the sake of some else is not exactly a “choice”. I hope our nation’s leaders soon take note of what the EU and Isreal already recognize and start to factor in this other half of the Covid-immunity equation. Thank you again!!!

Last edited 1 month ago by Jennifer Owen
148
0
Would love your thoughts, please comment.x
()
x